The Peaceful Home

Ep 41 Grief, Loss & Healing: the Caregivers Journey to Health with Jennifer Hinson

August 09, 2022 Pamela Godbois
The Peaceful Home
Ep 41 Grief, Loss & Healing: the Caregivers Journey to Health with Jennifer Hinson
Show Notes Transcript

The New 30-Day Challenge- ALIGNED- Check it Out!


In this week’s episode, I sat down with my friend Jenni Hinson, widow, caregiver, and advocate for others. Jen lost her sole mate Shawn recently to cancer, and while Shawn’s loss spurred in her a healing journey of self-discovery and awakened awareness of the system’s failings, this is not Jen’s first time in the role of caregiver.  She lost her previous husband to cancer as well, and it is this journey, through the system twice, along with lots of ah-ha moments that allowed Jen to see how the system was failing caregivers. 


From her unique perspective, Jen shares her own journey with health, physically, emotionally, and spiritually and how her own story, really began this drive to help change how the system works with and provides for caregivers. 



If this episode inspired you in some way, take a screenshot of you listening on your device and post it to your Instagram Stories and tag us, @pamgodboiscoaching 


In this episode you’ll hear:

  • Jen’s path to wellness and her barrier along the way. 
  • How the loss of her soulmate has changed her, and opened her up to so much more. 
  • How this IT specialist is embracing her inner artist, one she didn’t even know was there. 
  • Jen’s early story with trauma and the lessons learned. 
  • How she learned to do her own healing after so much tremendous loss. 
  • How Jen is working to change the system and educate providers to allow caregivers’ needs to be seen and addressed, body, mind & spirit. 



LINKS:

If you want to connect with Jen- DM us on IG and we will put you in touch! 



Facebook Group For Moms: The Messy Truth: Moms on the Path of Rediscovery

Connect with me:  Instagram, Facebook, and Tiktok


If you’re like “I love listening to Pam chat with guests.” Then head over and write a review! We really appreciate your support and it helps us to keep growing!!  https://pamgodbois.com/ApplePodcast Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode. Be sure to tune in next week.



The best thing you can do for yourself and your kids is effectively regulate your nervous system. And a great place to start >> to wire the brain for gratitude. Research tells us that gratitude increases happiness and a peaceful mindset. Make the shift and watch how things in your life start to change. Sign up today! www.pamgodbois.com/gratitude

Pam:

Grief and loss. Acceptance and healing. That's what we're talking about this week on the out of your mind podcast with my friend, Jen. Who decided to come on the show so that she could share her journey as a caregiver. After losing two husbands to cancer. Jen was really feeling fed up with the system. The lack of support for caregivers. And the lack of understanding of caregivers, physical, emotional, and spiritual health. And Jen is out there doing her best now. To change how the system. Approaches palliative care. And end of life treatment. Let's dive in Welcome Jenny. I'm so glad that you're here and decided that you wanted to come share your story with me and with the audience for the podcast. So

Jenni:

welcome. Thank you for having me.

Pam:

I would love for you to just share a little bit about who you are, like what's going on, what you're doing. And then we'll kind of jump into your story.

Jenni:

Yeah. So I am a widow times two. I know, I feel like a unicorn sometimes I, I actually work for a healthcare system doing it stuff for them. And Recently I've started this journey of not recently, probably in the last year and a half, I'll get deeper into it, but yeah, totally. It I've had a lot of trauma through my years that I didn't understand. I didn't acknowledge. I'm very analytical. So what I would do is I would put things in the proverbial file box, shove it in a closet because I don't have time for this right now. And eventually the closet door could not hold anymore stuff. Busted off the hinges. It went poof and I was like, shit so originally I'm from Michigan. I have. My parents were divorced and they had a very volatile relationship. And so it was a pretty early traumatic start. I also have a brother who is a very evil person. And so all of the attention was kind of focused on him. This is back in the seventies, people didn't understand things. So I always tried to be that perfect child. Always tried to make sure we had peace. I always I've always been empathetic like an empath but I was shunned by my family. So if I cried during a movie, I would get teased. Yeah. And I was taught that to be strong. I needed to be strong and independent, not ask for help, don't show any vulnerability. And this all plays a part in, in my future. Yeah. Is why I'm

Pam:

explaining. Yeah, totally. No, I can see I already, cuz I know your story. Because we're friends, I know the, I know what the journey has looked like and as you're unpacking this stuff, I'm like, oh my goodness. That, yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense too. And that makes sense too.

Jenni:

Yep. Yeah. And my, and my stepfather was a bipolar alcoholic mm-hmm so you're, I I've always had a strong intuition. So, so growing up, you can't label those things like. You don't understand, like this is probably not normal behavior. Right. Right. And the, and I was never praised or acknowledged except by my grandmother who always like, you're beautiful. You're smart. You're you're this you're that? So fast forward, I've been married three times. Mm-hmm My first relationship was my lesson in life. I have a beautiful son from that relationship, but it was very, very abusive. And I ended up leaving when my son was for, I had no money. I couldn't even buy toilet paper. I said I'm done. Because again, I was supposed to be this. I just was such a people pleaser and I was afraid of disappointing and upsetting that apple cart. And I was never allowed to be my true, authentic self. I may not even know what that person looked like. Yeah, you probably

Pam:

didn't. I mean, it would make sense that you didn't, because you were you're every, every internal impulse you have had growing up in your life, you were told you were wrong. Yeah. Or you were told was wrong. You can't feel that way. You can't think of those things. You can't have that experience. And so it would make sense that by the time you were a young adult that you would have no fucking clue who you were or what that, or what, who you wanted to be, or how to show up as that person, because you're just kind of, constantly seeking from the external world, like the instructions, right. You're looking for your Lego instructional manual of how to all of life

Jenni:

and the validation. And I thought, society puts out this very linear path of what life should look like. I screwed that linearity up. The best way possible. I have windy roads, deep cliffs. I bounce really well and I don't quit. Mm. And I think those are important things like, I, I, in a deep inside of me, I knew there was something special about me and I knew I just couldn't quit. So, I, I took four years before I got married to my second husband, Lou. I wanted to get my shit straight. Like I'm like, I can't jump into another relationship if I'm broken and I don't understand why I'm broken. Not that I was truly healed, but I was in a better place. And Lou was my first true love. And he. Adored me. He was the first man to tell me, I love you. You're beautiful. You're smart. You're hard. Hardworking. He taught me beautiful lessons, like how to use my voice and not be afraid. Hmm. We were married 11 years and he died of lung cancer. And it was six months from the time he was diagnosed to the time that he died. Yeah.

Pam:

I remember you saying that he was diagnosed at like stage four lung cancer, right? Yeah. And his progression was very

Jenni:

quick. It was like, yeah, like that. And I was a hot fucking mess. Mm-hmm sorry, I can't say that word. You can say

Pam:

whatever words you want on here.

Jenni:

Good. I would, I wasn't dealing with it. Well, mm-hmm I didn't know how to deal with it, because again, going back to my childhood, like when I had her grandmother pass away, that was my step grandmother. I was told not to cry because she was just my step grandmother. That didn't mean I didn't love her. And I had to go to school the same day I found out. So it, it, so, so I didn't know how to, to react. Mm-hmm and literally it was like someone reached into my heart, my chest pulled up, my heart, threw it on the ground, shattered it a thousand times, stomped on it. Yep. And then shoved it back in. Oh, wait. Now something would come along. And I had started drinking and mixing pills. Because I just wanted to numb myself. Yep. Wasn't trying to hurt myself. Yeah. Just didn't wanna feel, I just didn't wanna feel for a little bit. I later would learn that I grieved the loss of blue. I accepted that part, what I never dealt with and what I shoved deep down inside of me was the, the trauma of the events. And that's really gonna be important with Sean's story. So with I met Sean about four months after Lou passed and Sean and I. So we're, so we're still soulmates. I can still feel connected with, to him and I, while my soul is at peace with him, I am grieving his physical loss. Mm-hmm because he could write my ship. Cause sometimes, I'm a Gemini, so I get a little crazy go quickly and he'd be like, come on honey. but vice versa. Yep. We had a dark sense of humor. Like he got my humor, he never judged me. He accepted me just who I was like before our first date, I literally said to him, okay, this is what I need from a relationship. And I named off like all of this stuff. And then I said, what do you need from a relationship? And he named off his stuff. I said, oh, I can do that. Can you give me what I need? He's yeah, sure. Normally I scare men. He wasn't scared me. Hadn't even went out on a date yet. Yep.

Pam:

You're like, oh, this is a good one. This is a good one. Scare'em off this.

Jenni:

Yeah. To scare em off, I better scare them. And there is just a connection. I can't explain with them. It's we've been together for lifetimes. Yeah. And we were each other's yin and yang and we had a good like his friend, like he was a confirmed bachelor. Like his family, his friends were. I'm I'm sorry, Strong's moving in with you. Oh wait. The two of you are getting married. like they, they were quite shocked. And his one friend once told me, he goes, he's the only, you are the only girl at this time. I was his girlfriend that he calls by name. And so we just was just, and he started opening up this little spiritual side, just little glamorous. And I because I was angry, I was angry at God. I was angry at universe. I. I was, it was more so that traditional organized religion and, and I don't, I respect that everybody's belief. Yep. For me, organized religion doesn't work. Mm-hmm But I respect that. I just wanna make that clear. So I was really angry. I couldn't understand why. And so I think we were together eight years, maybe nine, eight years, I think 2019, February 1st, very first Sean was diagnosed with colorectal stage four colorectal cancer. I was devastated. I

Pam:

remember that. I remember you coming into yoga, like

Jenni:

I was fucked up. Yeah. I remember sitting there crying and I'm driving him home from colonoscopy and Sean had this wonderful gift of reframing things. He just, he could accept things for the way they were and he could reframe them. So, it made sense to him and I, I was driving and I was crying and he's honey, it's gonna be okay. I'm like, no, you don't fucking understand what's coming. Yeah, I've been here, I've done this. And now I have to do it again. And then I realized as the words were coming outta my mouth, like that had to be scary for him. And I'm like, but don't worry. I'm not leaving you. I'm just angry. Right?

Pam:

I said, I didn't mean I wasn't going to do this again. I just meant that I'm pissed that I, that this is the path

Jenni:

on that's all. That's all. Yeah. And so I, I was like, because he didn't understand it and he, but he gave me the space. He always gave me the space. Even the first year after Lou died, he always gave me the space to grieve mm-hmm he never understood it. And sometimes I would be in this funk. And I remember the, the first year after Lou died, our anniversary was coming. Our wedding anniversary was coming up and I was just like anxious and like all over the place. And he looked at me and he was Jen. What's the worst that's gonna happen on this day. I was like, what do you mean? He goes, the worst has already happened to you. He died. There's nothing worse on this day. That's gonna happen. I was like, you son of a bitch. Why are you doing so? But I was grateful because that is the way Sean could reframe things for me. Mm-hmm and that's the way I could communicate with him too, when he was so February, 2019, literally turned out to be a shit show. We find out Sean has cold cancer. Then the sewer line breaks outside of our house in February. Mm-hmm In new England. Mm-hmm of course we have snow on the ground. Finally. Now I have to we had to move out of the house and now Sean didn't do well with change. So he's what do you mean? I have to move out of my house. Like his world's literally been turned upside down and now we've gotta move out. Cause right. We've got sewer in the basement and we've gotta find someone who can dig like four and a half feet down through the, so when I say February, 2019 was a shit show yeah. A literal shit show

Pam:

and

Jenni:

yeah, it really was. And so, we had to go through the staging and we had to go through, meet with the surgeons and we had to meet with oncologist and. This is where Sean and I complimented each other very well. Sean just needed to know, tell me when and where to be. Give me the big picture overview. Don't give me the details. Mm-hmm and I would literally walk in and I'm detailed. I'm like, give me the details. I'm gonna research this. I'm going to fix this. Right. That's how I coped with my anxiety. I'm that high? This I got this. I actually listened to ane brown podcast where she was talking about the different types of anxiety. And one of'em is a high functioning take control. That's how I would control my anxiety. Yeah. I literally cried during that podcast because I'm like, that is me. Right to a T you like

Pam:

stop singing into my soul. I hate you. And

Jenni:

so I could see him shutting down. And so we would, it short, concise, I don't wanna say short, concise sentences because he was a very intelligent man.

Pam:

Yeah. It sounds like bites that were like, he was an intelligent man, but what I, what you shared with me, and what I understand about him is that

Jenni:

that being in

Pam:

touch with how he's feeling about something is not at the forefront of who he is as a being, which is fine. So you had to break things down into like bite size chunks so that he could emotionally digest it. It wasn't the information. It was like, here's the information. But he had to go through the process of being able to digest it from an emotional

Jenni:

standpoint. And I also had to, so he would, we elected not to have surgery, to have like a, a bag put on because he's I can't go through chemo and have this bag on me. And he just knew like emotionally he couldn't. Right. And I'm like, that's fine. I support you. And the doctor was like patient refuses. So they always say, I'm like, oh, okay. But here's the thing. We're not gonna be cured. He's going to die. We know he's going to die. Mm-hmm we don't know when, but we know he is gonna die. And our focus needs to be on his quality of life. And if this colostomy bag is not gonna be adding to his life, we're not doing it right. We'll revisit it at some point, if we need to. And then we met with the oncologist and what I'm not understanding at this point is I'm having PT. I'm having post traumatic stress. Yeah. I had no clue when you get wrapped up into things and you have trauma mm-hmm I don't care who you are. Right. You don't recognize it because you're just like, I'm plowing ahead. I'm plowing ahead. Just let me get to the next marker. The next appointment, the next right goal. And I told his oncologist I've been through this. I have had a previous husband pass away. Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Okay. That, that that's your response. Okay. So like oncology was just like, yeah, we don't care. We're just doing chemo. Shawn told chunk totally dismissing the concept that when you're on a cancer journey, when your spouse has this cancer journey, you're both on it. Mm-hmm, they're linear journeys. Very different. I mean, yes, he's going through all the physical stuff, but I have all of the emotional stuff. I am trying to take care of him. And he was one that was not good with paperwork. I literally took care of every medical thing. From bills to appointments, fixing mistakes to communicating, like he didn't have a clue. He would just go and show up where he would show up. Yep. He would show up. So we start going through this process. I not, as I'm not recognizing that I'm in distress, I have no clue. Well, which

Pam:

totally makes sense, because if you say my, that your anxiety type, because the thing about trauma post-traumatic stress disorder that diagnosis, or any of the acute trauma diagnoses that are in the therapist, the diagnosis to school manual can go through all of them. And, and, we can hit all the different points, but the it's a collection of symptoms based on an experience or, or an ongoing journey or experience. Right. And so you wouldn't see it in the moment. You'd only

Jenni:

see

Pam:

the, like the symptom or the fallout from it you'd feel the anxiety or you'd feel the sadness, or you'd feel the overwhelmed or whatever the right. And it makes sense because your anxiety type is the fixer. Right. It makes sense that you're like, I'm gonna do all the things and we dot cross all the T's and dot all the I's and make sure everything's taken care of it. Oh, there's a problem over there. And let me dive in and take care of that. And, oh, there's a thing. Oh, let me dive in and take care of that. And so it's you're, if your baseline there's like the baseline you. Yep. And then there's like the stress response, you and the stress response to you is like we have everyday stressors, right. Stress happens and you're like, woo. And you have to step up your game, but this was a situation where your stress response, like your stress experience was like through the roof and you were doing all the things that you do to manage the day to day stressors. And you, there was something in you that you were like, oh, this feels awful, but there was a component, your logical brain was like, of course it feels awful. Like my husband is sick and dying. I understand that. And so of course, but not recognizing the level of distress you were

Jenni:

in. Yeah. So it's so interesting cuz it's a great segue. So I. Summertime that year, I started gaining a lot of weight and I was eating properly. I was exercising still, cuz it's still 2019. We haven't hit COVID yet. Yeah. and then, I mean, I was having anxiety attacks and heart palpitations and I couldn't figure it out. So I go back to the APRN at the nutrition place that I would go. And I started my, my famous term at that time would be putting the lipstick kind of pig. This is what I'm stuck with and I'm gonna make the best of it. She had me, she's oh, we need to have you go to your PCP. You need an EKG. You need what? Thyroid labs? I, I have polycystic ovarian syndrome, so my endocrin system doesn't work anyways. Mm-hmm and then I decided, oh, I'm eating right. I'm exercising. I'm gonna stop my medicine for my P C O S because I need to save money. I think I was just, it was like my way of rebelling FYI, don't your medicine. It fired victim. So I get in, I see it, my EKGs abnormal, not greatly abnormal, but there's something there. Yep. So then they send me down for testing and we find out I wasn't having a heart attack that God. But my thyroid is not working appropriately. And the funny thing with my thyroid is, is if you looked at my TSA range, it actually do, most doctors would say is in the right range. Yeah, no, I'm special. mine. Tssh has to be between two and three. Okay. If not, I have severe headaches, extremely it's like trudging through mud uphill. The anxiety, the heart palpitations, like I can tell immediately when my thyroid isn't right. And so my PCP is super understanding. and she's we're gonna treat you as a person. We're not going to look at what the reference range is. And so we were doing a lot of tweaks, but go to see the cardiologist. Cause I have to have this work up and the cardiologist, Sean freaked out. Like I had come home. I said, honey, I am abnormal, blah, blah, blah. So we might get a phone call tonight if like my cardiac enzymes are like not in a good spot and I could just immediately see the panic on his face. He didn't say it, but I could see it. So again, I got right in before COVID hit. And so I did the testing that needed to be done. Went in Sean decided the first time ever to go to a doctor's appointment with me. And he sat in there with me and he was like, I explained to Sean is sitting there with me. We explained to him that Sean is dying from stage four, colon cancer. Sean's still doing pretty well. Yeah. And not, oh, I'm sorry to hear that. And so he's well, lose weight. Excuse me. Did you not hear my whole life such shit show? And that I like lost like the doctor. So I started asking about my thyroid. So I'm like, so if my thyroid gets under control, will it help me? I don't know. I just deal with hearts. So I'm like. Oh, my God, this is a mess. So Sean goes, yeah, she snores really loudly. I'm like shut up. I'm like, literally like shut up, shut up. You're throwing me under the bus. Actually. It was the best throwing me under the bus every day, because it turned out there's a, a family trait that we all have. There's a lot of us that have sleep backne. And I think since we've been friends for so long, you, I couldn't control my asthma. Well, as soon as I, I did the sleep study and again, I, now I have to do it at home because now's hit. Yep. And so they were like, yeah, you have mild sleep apnea. I go on the CPAC machine and my asthma goes away. Oh my God. Yeah. Wow. Well, it's

Pam:

so crazy. Our systems are crazy because as you're talking about this stuff and you're like, and one of the things that I teach on all the time as a therapist, I mean, yoga teacher and a coach, and all the things that I do right. Is that is how the body and the mind, the emotional centers and all that, how everything comes together. Right? And so you're taking on all this emotional stress, and this is the piece that your providers at the time are missing. Right. You're like my husband's dying of stage four cancer. And they're like, oh, that's, I'm sorry to hear a master death. So anyway about your diet and exercise and you're like, what did you like? Hi, how about my cortisol cycles? And how about how the cor, how the high cortisol levels are burning out my thyroid? And now my thyroid, like all

Jenni:

the things. Oh yeah. And not, not to mention. So I'm getting, so I know I'm taking a very windy road. That's fine. I like windy roads, so, C's hitting. Yep. And all of a sudden, and for a long time, again, I'm supposed to, I grew up, this is where my, my childhood comes into play or all through my life. It comes into play, but it, I felt like I was banging my head, what I was afraid to ask for help. Mm. Because then it would be a sign of weakness and I couldn't be weak because if I was weak or if I cried or I showed any vulnerability, like I felt like I would be shunned. So I had, this is I have a, a, a friend that is also a, a yoga teacher and. Had a studio had to close it down because of COVID, but she moved everything online, which was great. Cuz I had moved further away from her. Right. And I'm like, this is fabulous. And I love you in yoga and me, I love my frog position or Fran pose. I couldn't get into it and I couldn't sit still. I couldn't like, if you had asked me to sit still and calm your mind, I, I physically couldn't do it. And I, I still wasn't putting the pieces together. So she also did this Monday night class that was like moon rituals and stuff. So I thought. What the heck, I know this astrology and, shock work and I'm like, what the hell is it gonna hurt? Right. At this point,

Pam:

like

Jenni:

maybe it'll help. Maybe it'll help a little who, so I was slowly listening to it of it was sinking in. I also do the early on, I was, I had been seeing someone to talk to mm-hmm and she had recommended a book called why bad things happened to good people by Harold Kushner. Yep. And I tell you is one of the best books I've ever read because when I stopped asking why it made a huge difference because there was no why to this, it is what it is. Mm-hmm so. We're in co so we're now we're, we're in the summertime, July 5th. I ended up in the emergency room with unexplained abdominal pain. I couldn't explain it to them. The ER, doctors are like, why don't you adjust are negative? I don't know why you're here. Treating me like I'm a drug addict or right. I'm like, I'm not asking you for pain medications. I got that shit at

Pam:

home. Right. I'm not saying my stomach hurts. Give me something. I'm saying what the fuck's wrong with me.

Jenni:

yeah. So then anyways, the bottom line I ended we were there so long. I finally just ended up leaving because they were supposed to give me some medicine and an ambulance came in and they don't like to deal with abdominal pain because they don't understand it. Yeah. And it's indescribable mm-hmm so that I'm like, fuck it. I'm going home. And Sean was getting antsy and angry and I'm like trying to keep him like calm because he's getting pissed because they're not treating me. Right. And we're right down from the COVID curtains. And I mean, just, and we're freaking out because Sean's, I mean, compromised. Right. And at this time we had already failed line one, so we were going into line two. So I, once we failed line one, I reached out to palliative care, best decision ever. And we were sitting there that I forget what day, but it was a couple days after and I would literally just, I couldn't eat. I would be nauseous. My, I mean, I can't explain the abdominal pain. Like it didn't make rhyme. No reason. Mm-hmm and I'm crying and I feel like shit, and this is supposed to be Sean's visit. And so I just go completely out deep end and I'm like, I'm sorry, this is supposed to be about Shauna. And she's no, wait, time out. This is my game changer. She goes, this is about both of you. And so she asked me what was going on the first time in about two years that somebody in Sean's care team asked me, how are you? Yeah, I had already reached crisis when. And so then she's we need to have one on ones. Mm. And so then she started, when we did our one on ones, she's now we need to address the medical part of it. Like you need to do just to rule out you don't have anything medically going on. Right. And she was the first one to like, Jen it's mind, body and spirit. And she was like, you are not crazy. If your mind is going crazy, like it is your stomach is going, your stomach's gonna hurt. Yep. But she validated the fact that first of all, I wasn't imagining that my stomach hurt. Even though there wasn't a medical reason. Like a physical reason. Mm-hmm she validated that the amount of stress I was under was causing the physical symptoms.

Pam:

Yeah. I was just thinking, as you were saying that about, kind of what you talked about in your childhood of being,

Jenni:

of being told that, hold that

Pam:

what you think, what you feel, what you experience doesn't matter, and it's not true. And so now you have physical symptoms that are arising in your body. You seek medical attention for it. And the medical, attention that you sought in the,

Jenni:

in the ed, what you got was

Pam:

the physical symptoms that you're complaining that you have don't exist. Right. Like you, you can't actually trust yourself yet. Again, you're being told what you think, what you feel, what you believe, what you experience doesn't matter. It's not valid.

Jenni:

So, so she talked me into actually going on medication cuz I was dead set again. And any SSRIs, anything like this? I want it to be holistic. I, I can tough this out. Yeah. I'm gonna wait and knuckle it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we took the slowest train possible to try trade me up. It made a big difference eventually. And then I I'm still now when I'm doing the yoga and the meditation and all of these different things, I can actually sit there and piece and get into a yoga pose. I can calm my brain down a little bit. So I I'm balancing Eastern philosophy with Western philosophy. Yeah. Because I I'm a true believer. If you need medication, you take the medication. But just because I'm on a SSRI doesn't mean I don't do the work. Yeah. Well still gotta do

Pam:

the work. Yeah. And you being resistant to there's this kind of interesting parallel, right? Like you being resistant to an SSRI which is for those, for listeners, that don't what an Sri that's like the medication that gets prescribed most often, it's a selective serotonin Rease inhibitor. It get prescribed. Most, it gets prescribed most often for depression and anxiety. It's like the go-to medication, it's your Zoloft, your Paxil, your Prozac, those types of things. So, but

Jenni:

on you're like, I don't need that, but Of course

Pam:

Sean has cancer. So he needs the treatments that they're providing him to help him manage symptoms or, whatever, the, whatever the, treatment team decides and you guys agree to and all that stuff. So it's like you're not saying okay, let's just like meditate and use oils and like herbs and all the things to manage the symptoms that you're experiencing from cancer. But I'm gonna do that for my

Jenni:

own shit. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I had to find the balance and I started exploring this is when I started exploring this is where this group I was in. I started exploring the, the holistic side of it because I believe there's a lot of benefit. And so I took the chakra class. It was a six week class and, oh my gosh, it was game changer again. Game changer. I did not realize the energy blockage. Mm. And I didn't realize the trauma, not only the trauma I experienced as a child, but then I can look at the ancestral trauma. Why in my family, mothers and daughters don't have good relationships and it's passed down from generation to generation. And I have a very difficult time because my mom likes to be. Yeah. She won't admit that, but anyways, that's, that's a whole different story. So I start working with my chakra and I start, I have crystals around the house. Do they work? Do they not work? You know what? I can't tell you, but I like them and they make me feel good. Yeah. I started, this is when I, I started this painting, did this therapy. I did a, the did this therapeutic watercolor mm-hmm and I am so analytical and I am never really picked up a paint brush. And if you could see my back wall I had a gift. I didn't know I had, so I sit in front of campus and that's my meditation. Mm. I was able to, I can't do instructions. I can't draw a stick. Right. But literally if I would close my eyes and meditate, I will get something. And it's that. So soul piece. Yeah, those emotionals and I would just paint and paint and I still paint and I'm getting better and better. And it's a, a, a great therapy tool. I also started advocating for caregivers. I was on a pilot program at Dartmouth and developing and speaking to professionals about, you gotta take care of your caregivers, because if you have a sick caregiver, you have a sick patient. Yeah. And, developed, it helped develop an online support group for caregivers and bereavement. Just as much as losing Sean. And losing glue and all of the crap I went through this spiritual awakening has helped me realize that there's something that's out there that I am supposed to do. Whether it's advocating for caregivers, whether it's creating some type of intuitive therapeutic art, I'm not a teacher, but I can share my story. Yeah. And I, and I can say look, you're not paying attention to your caregivers and you need to

Pam:

yeah. Yeah. And our stories are powerful, right? Like hearing, hearing the story, your story, and the, the struggles. I mean, just the physical health struggles that arose. While you were in the role of a caregiver this time, cuz you've been in the role of a caregiver most of your life. But this time specifically with Sean's illness where you're stepping into, or you're stepping into medical facilities over and over and over and over and your, the needs that you have that have arisen for you, like fit just physically, never mind emotionally and spiritually are keep getting brushed under the rug. And so if you can't get your physical needs addressed by the medical industry, Western medicine, then there's no way in hell you're gonna get your emotional or spiritual needs met there. Yeah. It's not

Jenni:

gonna work. Isn't gonna happen. Yeah. And I can, yes. And I will say that through palliative care they have helped me identify when I'm in that traumatic. When I little, I call her little Jenny mm-hmm because little Jenny has that's my inner child. I have. So healing is like a spiral. Yes. So I've taken care of all of the big stuff. I am getting into some deep shit now. Yeah. The much you don't wanna get into. And so they've helped me identify, if I start, start hyper focusing mm-hmm I need to take a step back. If I start, I wanna start caring for somebody to avoid my own emotions. Yeah. I need to take a step back. I'm getting better about no, I'm not getting that. I have a challenging relationship with my mother. There's a boundary. I'm not getting stuck in your mug. And I've started when I'm working with caregivers, I'm telling them like, sit with your emotions, don't step into your emotions. So like my grief, I don't go waiting in the buck with the grief. I sit with it. I honor it. I ugly cry through it. I, I do whatever I have to do, but I don't give it the power to take over my life. Mm-hmm because living and dying, it's a, it's secular, we're all gonna die at some point mm-hmm but I have a, and it, and that doesn't mean that I don't struggle. I struggle on a daily basis. Yeah. I sleep with Sean's shirt because I miss his touch. Yeah. I miss his snow. I miss his humor. I miss having, knowing I have someone have my back, no matter what. And, but I also know that this is my time for the first time in my life that I am figuring out who Jenny is. So, my, my whole life, I've just struggled and, and through my journey, I. I've learned about forgiveness. So my, my biological father and I never had a great relationship, but I finally, when I would, when I sat with things and I started healing things, I realized he didn't know how to be a dad, to a girl not to mention he was 17. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was not meant to happen. Right. I was like teenagers. So, and my mom gets mad at me because I've forgiven my dad. And then I realize the other thing that would piss my dad off would be, I was just like him and I was the only woman in his life. That would stand up to him because I'm his daughter, right?

Pam:

You like high genetics. Okay.

Jenni:

They are. And my, and then I realized after my mom lost my stepfather, which I understand the pain, but she hasn't done the work and she loves to be in that victim role. And she was always, she's always the princess and all of she has her own trauma. Yeah. And I need to remember to give her the grace. And I also have to remember that that's not my shit. Right. It's just like my little brother that I mentioned, nobody knew I had a little brother. He is a serial, he's a serial killer. He's not, he's very evil. Until I did my shop work class. I would never, I would never dare to say that to anybody, but guess what? That's not my shame. Right? That's that's not me. I know I'm a loving kind person and my heart goes out to the families he's affected and I have nothing to do with him, but that's not my shame. Right. That's not my journey. And for so long of my life, I've either been stuck in between taking care of people because mom and dad wouldn't talk. So make Jenny do it. Yeah. Take care of this, Jenny, be the strong one, Jenny do this gen and it was just like, That's not my, that that is not my stuff anymore. Mm.

Pam:

Like I have enough of my own stuff. I don't need your stuff too. Yeah. And I think that if we, if we can say that, if like we can just openly say, cuz all of us have enough of our own stuff, regardless of our stories, we don't need other people's shit. If we can just say like I have my stuff, I don't need yours. Thanks. Anyway.

Jenni:

Yeah. I was listening to your last guest and I loved it when she figured out oh, these are my boundaries. I don't need your stuff. Yeah. And I think that's the consistency I hear through your podcast. It's as women, we're like, you know what? We may have been conditioned to do X, Y, and Z. Yeah. Not doing it anymore. Correct. It's not serving me. And that's what I look at. What, what is serving my higher. Good. Mm. And I saw that in the hospice house with Sean. Because I started the spiritual journey, started a higher vibration and there were some lower vibration people there. And I physically hurt. Yeah. When I was around them until they left, like literally would have to, and was like, wow. Yeah. Wow. Like I just, so, I'm not necessarily explaining myself well, but I feel like I could go on for hours about everything I felt. Yeah.

Pam:

So it sounds I mean, it sounds like your journey has been your, the transformation for you has been profound over the, essentially through you kind of walked. Sean's illness with him by his side, having your own spiritual awakening in the process, right? Like this, these are the parallel processes that were happening. And as a result of all the, all the aha moments and all the shit that you were like, oh my God you have Le really leaned into this, understanding that.

Jenni:

Yes. Like

Pam:

we kind of know, and those of us that have been in the role of a caregiver are like, we get yeah, caregivers need, need care too. Right. But, but then to to actually be part of a pilot program, that's recognizing these things, is that part that, that wanting to come onto the podcast so that you can tell your story so that you can, if there's, if there's caregivers out there listening, they understand them. They're not alone and there are resources and there are things available and you can, you are allowed to go on your own journey and have your own experiences and do your own healing even while you're still caring

Jenni:

for the person that you love. Yeah. And it's, it's really funny. You say that because I made some fantastic connections on these online boards and they're like, you're so strong and you're so positive. I'm like, yeah, no, you don't see the ugly crying. But what you're seeing is I'm honoring that emotion and. Giving that space give learning to give myself grace learning to be vulnerable and just saying, you know what, right now I have the capacity for you to cry on my shoulder. We're in this together. You are not alone. And I, I mean, throughout our healthcare system, caregivers take care of yourself. Take care of yourself. Yeah. Okay. Try okay. I have how many medical mistakes that I have to fix. How I literally, I have literally fixed things with his oncologist. Things with hospice made suggestions with palliative care, which was extreme out of all of them. Palliative care was like, thank you for that wonderful feedback. We didn't understand. Yeah. What you were saying when you were reaching out. Mm. We thought you needed an ear when, and I'm like, well, thank you for telling me. I wasn't clearly communicating because I will tell you when things hit the fan, you are not thinking clearly. And the one thing Sean and I did very early on and we kept revisiting is one we did is advanced care planning. And then there's something else called a serious illness. Congress, you know, it's called a serious illness conversation. So I understood what Sean wanted. Mm-hmm so when the time came that Sean could no longer make his decisions, I could advocate even when he could make his decisions. I would be the one. I mean, I pissed off as oncologist. I don't know how many times, but I was just like, when we decided to stop treatment, she's oh, well we can restart this. And, or we can try this new med that in the new meds, like$45,000 per treatment. And I looked at, and I'm like, dude, not emptying my retirement in my aging, our house to the hill. And your, the outcome is still gonna be the same. Mm-hmm and you're gonna be really, really sick and not enjoy the rest of your life. Right. So we made some and that's very unusual. So like I sat in the office and I said, so all of our treatment options have failed. And this is right before Christmas. And I said, if he was a 70 year old, man, what would you tell him? She goes, oh, I would stop treatment. I'm like, so he's 54 years old. And you don't wanna stop treatment and Sean wasn't processing what he cause she's well, I can reduce this dose of this medicine, but he didn't understand that this one medicine really made him sick the first time around mm-hmm he didn't understand that she was never going to be able to reduce it enough for him to have a good quality of life and slow the cancer down. Right. And that's where I would come in. And

she,

Pam:

right. You had to decide, you had to choose between feeling, feeling okay. In the day to day or slowing down the cancer. You can't

Jenni:

have both. Yeah. So what she was doing, so she looked, she, she looked at me cuz she was, I I'm breaking it down in strong language. Okay. Digestible chunks. Good. Cause he, at this point he is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like time out. Remember our conversations, remember what's important. And she looked at Sean and put her hand on his knee and said, what do you want, Sean? Maybe we should have a, and I'm like, really I'm paying bills. Second. You've just a lot of information at this man who, can't digest

Pam:

it. Even at his healthiest. Yes. And this is not as healthiest. No, right. Not just the cancer, but all the medication he's on. And like the, I mean, you think about just, just your experience by his side, the brain fog and the, and

Jenni:

the,

Pam:

struggles with concentration and focus and all that stuff. I can't imagine being in his position and then having a doctor say okay, so what do you want in this? And he can't process through the information. And so we,

Jenni:

we ended up putting it off. We actually, I tried to talk to him as we were walking up. Luckily we had taken two different cars. He went one way and I went the other, Shawn and I had this really good rapport where we understood when each of us needed space and we would walk away from each other. And so I did some crying, whatever, cause I knew what the answer needed to be great. And I came back home. He was. Had time to process and he's no, I, I think I agree. I said, how about we do this? Because we really trust our palliative care provider. I said, let's talk to her. And she was super amazing. Next saying, if you do this, this is what's gonna happen. If you do this, this is what's gonna happen. And then that's when we decided our decisions were always together and that's really hard for the healthcare system to understand. And I think my, my important point to this is if they can't understand that this is a team effort, they can't understand.

Pam:

When you talked about doing, you being on this journey as well, and you doing a lot of your own personal work there, I think about like my mom my dad passed away in, in December of 2019 and had been very ill, didn't have cancer, but had lots of other health things going on. And my mom was always like, I mean, they were had dated since they were 16 years old. Right. And so they've been together their entire lives. And my mom had a hard

Jenni:

time saying I don't, I don't want you to be in pain and struggling.

Pam:

Even though she didn't, she didn't wanna like kind of let go and allow put a boundary in place or say she got kind of, know, we talked about like our role as women and like all the things. Right. And, and like her like, well, it's my job. I'm supposed to say, what I'm supposed to say is yes. Do all the treatments imaginable so that he stays around it for as long as possible. Right. And that's what I think Western medicine in the healthcare system thinks that the partner is going to say in every circumstance and yes, every circumstance is different. It's okay. It's okay to go through the process and come up with, decide together and look at quality versus quantity. It's okay. And, and it's also okay to look at quality versus qu I mean, quantity, ver whatever, both directions you're allowed to have more time that where somebody's sicker. And you're allowed to have less time where somebody is, can like. Be out in the world doing things or experiencing

Jenni:

life. You're right. First of all, everybody's, journey's different and everybody has different priorities. Sean and I just happen to, again, we're yin and yang. Yeah. And we fit like we fit together and our palliative care. Providers were always just so amazed at how well we worked together. But I first Shawns accepted very early on that he was not going to be cured. He said, if I was going to be cured, I'd go through hell and back. I'm not going to be cured. And that's really hard when you were 51 diagnosed with cancer because. In their mind, they're thinking, well, this man may have a lot of time left and Sean's fuck that. I'm living what I have left. Nobody. He, his famous thing is get two famous quotes. One, no one's guaranteed tomorrow. And two, sometimes you draw the ACE and sometimes you draw the deuce. I got the deuce. So I learned so much about acceptance from Sean. So it made it easier for me to accept yeah. That, that he was passing. It also made it easier for me to advocate because he was so clear with me. Yeah. And we had those hard conversations. It's when we had to talk about, we had to sign polls. And for those that know what polls says, it's basically your DNR what you would want done. And so our palliative care had to explain to him that if he got COVID, he would die. Yep. That he, he wouldn't have what he wanted. And this was before vaccinations and stuff like that. And then I cried cuz here I'm telling my husband, if you get this virus and making you, we're going on to hospice, I'm not gonna waste medical resources on you because in the end, right. It's gonna be harder on you. So, you have to. You have to have those conversations. Yeah.

Pam:

And I think you had some really beautiful lessons and learning to, one of the things we talk about in yoga all the time, right. Is letting go and acceptance and all those things, and you had some really beautiful, like real life lessons of coming to a place of acceptance and being able to let go of the things that you don't have control over. Right. You're like, I can't control that. I can do the best I can. And we all kind of went through this with COVID right. I can do the best I can to keep COVID out of my house. And there are a lot of people out there that for COVID the a COVID diagnosis was a life or death diagnosis, right. That getting COVID meant, certain death. And so just kind of being able to have these hard conversations, being able to come to a place of

Jenni:

I will say for us COVID was a double edge sword. One beautiful thing is I got to work from home, which meant I had time, Michelle. And I love the fact that COVID slowed us down, meaning you, it forced us not to overschedule things. Yeah. And allowed us to. Sometimes my favorite time of day is the morning. I love to just sit there and listen to the birds and do my meditation. And, and so I think so that's what I loved about COVID is that it, it, it forced us to. That slow me down. Yeah.

Pam:

The whole world was slowing down. So yes, it was not like you didn't have to feel. Cause I think one of the things that happens for caregivers is there's a lot of guilt and there's a lot of, like even to this day, my mom, my dad used to say near the end, he would say, Mo come sit with me. And she wouldn't, she was like a little I'm gonna fold this laundry and they're just gonna do this dish. I just gotta she'd be around. She didn't go anywhere. But she was like doing the things and I think COVID forced us to kind of just slow everything down and and we can, so as a result, we're, we're able, we were able a lot of us to, and it sounds for you as well, and maybe some other caregivers that are listening. To not, not be so overcome by the guilt, not be so overcome by the, was, do the wrong thing. Or I did the, because, because every, we all had to slow down. You're like, I can't go out with my friends, even if I want to, because nobody's going out because everything's closed. everything.

Jenni:

I guess I'm saying I had started feeling guilty about, do I go to the gym? Do I go to the gym? Yeah. And then took that decision away from me okay. Heard you got it. Thanks. Yeah. I mean, and I wanna make one thing clear. I don't have everything. I'm a work in progress. And there's different phases. I'm learning to healing, right now I'm in a rest phase. Yeah. I'm recovering. I'm resting. I'm not intentionally like doing that shadow work. It'll come back. Yeah. When the time's right. But I'm giving myself permission to just, what, if I don't go, if I can't get through something today, that's okay. Mm. If I can, I can, but I just, the chronic, it's almost like a chronic dieting I'm addicted to healing. Well, sometimes you just have to rest yeah. And feel where your body is in mind in soul. And all of that has landed and there's never a right answer or a wrong answer. My message really would be is you are not alone. I care. And there are people out there that we just. That will love you and, and, and support. I miss the kindness. I've had some very kind, a lot of kindness come my way. And I would just in the world we live in, you don't see a lot of that. Yeah. You see it on a micro level, but you don't see it on that macro level. Right. And I just, just a little bit of kindness. Yeah.

Pam:

I love that. And I love, yeah. I love, I love the idea of giving yourself permission to be, to live, to experience and to not have to be like trudging through the shadows all the time, because we all have shadow work to do we all have that

Jenni:

The shit. And

Pam:

we have a lifetime,

Jenni:

probably

Pam:

multiple lifetimes to move through that doesn't all have to happen this week. right. And so being able to kind of move through periods of rest is so valuable when those periods of rest often allow us to spread more kindness, to find more joy, to, to bask in more connection and to kind of, grow our worlds, to expand a little bit. And then when we have to, we go back into the phase of healing, we go back into a phase of contraction, right. We kind of pull away from the world a little bit, so we can come back and do like the self study work and then you get to expand again.

Jenni:

It's the, yeah. And it's natural. And I, I finally realized that joy and happiness is a mindset. Yeah. It's, yes. I've had a lot of stuff. That's. Not been pretty happened to me. Mm-hmm but it's also helped me become the person I am. So even though it's ugly stuff, I've chosen to take the lessons and I've chosen to, to, to just, just be content, to be happy. Yeah. And happiness, isn't something you achieve. It's,

Pam:

I know this is stuff I teach, right?

Jenni:

Like I know you have to decide, you just

Pam:

choose you. Basically. It's a choice, right? Happiness, joy, acceptance, love, connection, all of those things. They're a choice. And you can choose to sit in the shit. And like we, all this comes back to this idea of we all have shit. We all had shit. and you have had a lot of shit in a short period of time. Cuz our lifetimes, our lifespans are, are short in the cosmic, space. Yeah. Yeah. And there's been a lot of shit for you to, for you to, but you could totally just sit in if you chose, but you are making the choice to experience some of the beauty as well.

Jenni:

Right. I'd rather make a difference. Yeah.

Pam:

Yeah. I really, I'm super excited to see where, how this stuff all unfolds because you're kind of like at the you're giving feedback, you're talking about things, you're piloting things and you're just kind of like at the starting to dip your toes in and look over the edge. Like I think this is something that, that is, I know this is something that's important. I think this is something that I could be a part

Jenni:

of. I, I, I do know I wanna do the advocacy work. I am going start work on a grant with the palliative care provider that I worked with. I'm like you get me in front of your med students, get me in front of your residents, your fellows, the oncologist. I, I literally gave a with this one group through Dartmouth Institute, they asked me to talk about this questionnaire. And when I said the care partners, that's what they call'em. Or slash caregivers are your unseen patients. You literally could like, just hear the mouth drop. Did she really say that? And then I got some feedback from some very high upset wow. That one phrase. Yeah, you nailed it. Yeah.

Pam:

Yeah, I see you. There's there's a,

Jenni:

I think,

Pam:

yeah, I think there's some good stuff that's coming out of all this, and when we, when we lose people they're when they're physically no longer here with us, I think an beautiful way to honor their earthly time

Jenni:

is to

Pam:

is to love deeper, to connect more, to, to support more, to be kinder. And whether that is in your own like little bubble or whether that is stepping into the kind of stuff that you're doing, the energy is the same. The idea of it's the same, right? Like how cool would it be if you could move into a space, if you could, if 10 years from now, if you were to walk into a a hospice house as an advocate and not feel. The low vibration negative experience that you felt when you were there, just because of the shifts within the system. Like how cool would that be? You're like, wow, this is a really even, even with what it is, this is a really high vibration space.

Jenni:

I'm also learning sorry, pull some cards or Oracle cards. And then I keep pulling like loving your you're gonna fall in love. I'm like, oh, first of all, we're no, there's very long questionnaire because apparently I pick the men with all the cancer. But but what,

Pam:

I think there's a, some scar there, as we say in yoga, there's something Yeah,

Jenni:

but I think what the card means more is falling in love with myself. Never really loved myself because I didn't know how to love myself. Never felt valued. Yeah. And every once in a while, a little Jenny and I have to have a conversation, like I had to write her a letter right after Sean died. Mm-hmm you're loved, you're safe. I'm not abandoning you. We're in this together. Yeah. And because I think that nature jerk reaction is automatic is that inner child, because little Jenny, how she reacted was this hyper focused, and as the adult, I'm trying to reparent her as I have the

Pam:

capacity, it's so interesting is as you and I won't keep you forever. I know we've been on for a while, but as you were talking about Going through like the healing process that you're doing, some of the healing, some of the shadow work, some of the healing process that you're doing is inner child work. And one of the things that you said while we were sitting here together was historically like energetically and ancestrally through your family. The mother daughter relationship is tumultuous at best, and you are literally changing your family's line by having a different relationship with your inner child. You're parenting your mothering, your inner child in the way that you are, that you need to be parented as a child. And that is healing. Those ancestral

Jenni:

lines. Yeah. And it's not to say my mother was a bad mother. My mother didn't know. Of course she was a teenager. We, yeah. Right. And she had her own trauma. It's always,

Pam:

that's always the case and the whole intergenerational thing. Like we're seven generations in each direction. We impact seven generations.

Jenni:

And my mom and I will always have my mom's journey is her journey. Yeah. And I've gotta remember to just, I just put that boundary up. Yeah. And she gets, she'll say something really nasty and then I will, I'll want to respond and I will reach out to my best friend and she's don't respond or so I don't. And then all of a sudden she's nice. Right. Because she's looking for a response. Yeah. That's hard when you wanna be like

Pam:

right. When you wanna fire back,

Jenni:

totally get it. Yeah. I just totally get it. So no, Jenny,

Pam:

I so appreciate you being here. I

Jenni:

know. And sharing your story. I know you've talked such a long time. That's okay. And I love that you gave me the space and I feel honored. You gave me the space to tell my story. Yeah. And I couldn't get into the details. That would probably take days. Yeah. I don't know what my future holds, but I also know. When the right projects come up. Yeah. The universe is going to let me know. Yep. This is where I want you to go. This is what I prepared you for. This is why you had an abusive relationship. This is why you've been a widow twice. Mm-hmm and even now I know I've made some big impacts on some other caregivers, even if it's one or two people. Yeah.

Pam:

Yeah. And that, that, I mean, as, as you well know, from your own experience, that has an, an impact ripple effect. Cause if you can impact a couple of people and you're in impact way more than a couple of people, but if you can impact a couple of people and then they start to impact a couple of people and then they start to impact, like then we've got a room full of a hundred people that have been impacted just because you are doing this work.

Jenni:

Just validating. Yeah. I think that's what I do on a board. You're you're valid. Yeah. That's what you're feeling. You're valid. Yeah. It's just

Pam:

I'm excited to have you back in a, in a bit and see where you're at. Like, all right, let's see what Jenny's doing now. Let's see what

Jenni:

she's up to. People just, you work at your own pace. You're gonna have good days. You're gonna have bad days and yeah. Just don't sit in the muck.

Pam:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's such a great piece of advice like you do and you don't have to, I guess that's the other piece, is that for caregivers? Especially if you're a woman and a caregiver. There's a belief that like you have to, you have to sit in the muck, you have to sit in the yuck in, in the muck of it in the, and you can't ask for help. And it's, you're just supposed to suck it up. And

Jenni:

I just think, I, I, I think that goes across society, whether you're a caregiver, people love to get stuck in the muck. Yes. I'm like, I don't like it.

Pam:

No, it doesn't feel good. I'm all about I only wanna do things that feel good. I know. Right. So it doesn't feel good. I don't wanna do it. And it it's funny. I have people in my life like, oh, it must be nice. I'm like, you could do that too. If you chose. Yeah, I just choose.

Jenni:

So I wish I could tell my 20 year old self, all of the lessons I learned. Yes. And then maybe it, I could have. But that's okay.

Pam:

Everything happens, but you wouldn't be, you, you wouldn't be, you wouldn't be in this place doing the things that you're doing and showing up in the world and the way that you're showing up in the world, if you hadn't had every single one

Jenni:

of those experiences, I just love too. The fact that man, Amanda, validated my spiritual gifts. Yeah. Being an empath and yeah. Being, being able to sense things and yeah. Just like saying it's it it's okay. Yeah. To be the, that's not wrong, correct. So amazing. Well, thank you again. Appreciate you're welcome. It was

Pam:

nice catching up with you

Jenni:

as well. Yeah. We should

Pam:

like, Actually get together in real life, not just on

Jenni:

podcasts. yeah, but we'll have to make it

Pam:

a priority. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So thank you guys so much for listening. If there's anything that stood out to you, anything you wanna comment on, any stories that you wanna share? I will link up ways to contact us in the show notes. You can always reach out to me if you're feeling like you wanna connect with Jenny and I can put you in touch with her. So thank you guys. Have an amazing week and I will see

Jenni:

you next week. Take care.