Episode 82 Saying No to the Holiday Hell with Mandy Hoffman (Part 2)

The holidays can be a really hard time with all the extra pressure of “getting it right.” In this weeks episodes, my dear friend Mandy and I sat down to talk, setting boundaries, deepening connection and only doing what you truly want for you and your family this holiday season! 

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Transcript

Pamela: 0:00

Hey there and welcome to episode number 82 of the peaceful home podcast. This is part two of my conversation with Mandy Hoffman. Where we took a dive in earlier this week on. How to cultivate the holiday that you want for you and your family. And we continue talking about the subject. And as a matter of fact, we talk about boundaries and how to say no and how to find that middle ground so that if you're not somebody that wants to be out in the freezing cold, that you can still take part in family holiday traditions in a way that feels good to you. We talk all about this. And so much more. So let's dive. Dive in. Like I've, since my kid was I think when she was like two years old, I created a spray bottle for her with water so that she could help me clean because then she's part of the process. And it wasn't, I need to teach this kid how to clean. It was like, she wants to do, when our kids are little, they just want to follow around, follow us around anyway. You might as well be doing the thing together. And that's what creates oxytocin.

Mandy: 2:04

That was what was so hard for me is that being in a constant state of panic, overwhelm, anxiety, like not knowing any different. To me, there was no contrast to me being in a constant state of fight or flight was normal. And then to be in a home with children, I'd be like, get away from me like, ah like, I'm already like, wow, so tight. And now you're touching me like Stop. And so that's been a very long journey to even know the position that I was in, to know how long I was in, that, that heightened state, to then unpack it, to then, basically unclench my butt cheeks. Just, and just the constant, the practice in my the daily intention that's required to unravel that. To allow my kid to sit there with a spray bottle. And just be next to me while I'm cleaning, not that she's doing any better or worse or helpful, but just to allow her to be near me without snapping at her, that was really hard to learn. And also, the being highly reactive and snapping was learned behavior. And I didn't know that and so trying to unlearn that and being like, and in the beginning, it was a lot of when there's less in my house, there's less to clean. When there's less in my house, there's less for me to keep track of and worry about and feel, all of that heightened. And now with the holidays, it is the season of excess. And how can we mindfully bring in these traditions without triggering, any of these past stories? How can we, make it a season that you want to be a part of rather than being like, Oh shit, it's here again! Oh god, I hope I survive this! It's, so what if your activities, what if, being in the freezing, freaking cold, shivering, you put on four sweaters, but you should have put on five, looking at trees when you'd rather just get a fake one, but it's what the rest of the family does. And then you're sitting there and then you slip and you fall in the snow and you bang your knee and you're like, why the hell am I doing this tradition? Maybe it's time to bring it up and not to judgmentally tell your family, but say, Hey, can I be the person that has the hot cocoa waiting for you when y'all get back? Like, how can you more authentically show up to your family traditions? So it's not that you shit on their tree. It's not that you are blaming them or judging them. But how can you be like, I don't want to do it? And not why, and you don't have to tell them, I just, I don't want to do it, but I want to support the tradition. CaN I do it this way? And maybe the family members, being receptive to a family member who might say that, and know that they, this is them trying to build up the tradition more, not take away from the tradition.

Pamela: 4:50

ANd that's the if you're, in order to receive. Oxytocin from a neurochemical perspective. You cannot be outside bitching and moaning about why did you come here? This is so awful because you're telling your nervous system not to give you what you're seeking. So you can't do both of those things. So you're absolutely right. If being outside is torture for you, and I'll just be totally honest. When I became a yoga teacher, I think I became acclimatized to 87 degree weather because of being in hot yoga studios all the time. And I remember going through my yoga teacher training and starting out being like, it's so hot in here. And then by the end, I was like, I'm so glad it's so warm in here. And so there's like this shift that happened in my body. It's like when you moved to Florida or something from the cold area. And so but I still have that and I, and I. And I don't know. There's some information that talks about this also being an ADHD thing, but a struggle with regulating my body temperature is a thing

Mandy: 5:47

for anybody listening who doesn't know us. We are proud and true ADHD years.

Pamela: 5:52

Yes. And but so when I'm cold and I can't get warm. And when I'm hot, I can't cool down. I'm like, why is it so hot in here? And I will literally be like, Marlee and I have this conversation all the time. Is it sweltering in here or is it just me? And she will very be like, she'll be like, it's just you. Or she'll be like, no, it's freezing. And the same as the other is true. Like, why is it so cold in here? She'll be like, it's not cold. It's you. aNd so I literally was like, there are things that I just, I duck out of I'm like, I'm not doing that. And some of those things are outdoor things. Like we live in New Hampshire. And in the winter in New Hampshire, it's cold. May I pause you?

Mandy: 6:27

Yeah. I was always fascinated that you would duck out of things. I feel

Pamela: 6:32

like I was like, I'm not doing that.

Mandy: 6:34

And it's because of and to me it wasn't like, wow, she had the gull to do that. It wasn't like that. It was like, how did it even occur to her? To me, it didn't even occur to me as an option. I didn't even know that it was an option to say, you know what? This is not for me. I'm going to show up a different. So it's not that I'm bailing on you. And look at see I'm so defensive and proving to people I'm not bailing on them. You notice how I always have an and so I'm still working through that on my journey. It's okay to say no. It is an option, and I think most of us are socialized out of ever knowing it is an option. Now, it's an option that may have consequences, and there's all of that stuff,

Pamela: 7:14

yeah. I went to a training when I was I don't know, in my thirties before I had kids. And it was uh, cause I'm a social worker, I have a license. I'm a therapist of a license and have to do CEUs. And I went to a training on self care and I was like, all right, we'll see what this is about. Cause like a lot of the trainings are. The same, you just go to the same thing over and over again. And so this was like somebody new teaching something that was was new. And I was like, okay, I'll try it. And she said something in this training, she was a mom of three kids. And she said, when my oldest turned five, I stopped going to birthday parties. And I was like, what? And she was like, we hire a babysitter to take them to every birthday party they're invited to. And when I first did this, other parents were like. What? And now they all love our babysitter. Like they're like, she's the sweetest. And I still have relationships with all these other moms. I can like still spend time with them. We can go out for coffee. I would much rather spend my time with you as a mom going out for coffee, then coming to your kid's birthday party where all the parents are stressed and all the things and all the nobody wants to be there. And we're all. Bitching and moaning about it. She's so I just decided that was going to be my time. So now multiply that by three kids. And that's, and I was like, huh. And it just was enough to make me go, isn't that interesting? So what you're saying is I can do whatever I want, because I grew up. trYing to do whatever I wanted and was told stop trying to do whatever you want. You're not allowed like most of us. And so I got permission in like my early thirties to like do whatever I want. And I was like, okay, I'm going to do whatever I want. And that's where that came from. Like it came from this place of like, I'm not going to do that. And now I'm at a place where like Marley's 14 and there's stuff that she wants to do. And I'm like, yeah, I, maybe I do want to be there for some of that stuff. And I had this thing about. It's totally an ADHD thing. But I have this thing about like clothes that squeeze my armpits and I hate snow pants. I feel like I can't breathe. I feel like it's going to, it like triggers my fight or flight response. I know it's wacky, but it does. It triggers me. So I bought a, like what I call a sleeping bag jacket, I bought a down jacket that goes to my ankles. And the thing is. And I can't, those of you that know my story, I have a pacemaker. I can't I'm a hundred percent dependent. I will die if I go snowboarding. So I cannot snowboard or ski anymore. That's fine. I can't go sledding. That's fine. So I don't need snow gear for that kind of stuff. I just need to be able to tolerate being outside. So I wore this jacket on Halloween this year and I know my daughter's 14. I didn't need to be out with her. She and her friends went out. We went out into town because I live in a really small town and everybody trick or treats downtown. So we're just having talk about experiences, right? I just want to, I'm just going to be out and interact with people. And everybody was like, Oh my God, it's so cold. And I was like, Oh, it's perfect. Cause I had on my jacket. My husband thought I was crazy. Cause he was like, it's 40 degrees. You do not need that. And I was like, don't tell me what I need. And I wore it. And it was amazing. And now I'm prepared for anything that I want to

Mandy: 10:16

do. But you had to almost give yourself, you did not almost, you did give yourself permission to say, this is a priority for me. And I'm going to do this. And we've just been socialized so far away from any kind of, when you're going back to the woman discussing self care, and it's manicures and bubble baths are great. They're a great start, but they're a start. You still have a lot more to explore and unpack and experiment with. And it all starts with two letters. All the self care in the world. Starts with no. And same thing, I, it's funny I think I was largely inspired by you, I got the big top to bottom Canadians wear these jackets and I'm like, I don't care. And the whole neighborhood knows me, they're like, oh, they're like, it's below 60, she's got the jacket on, and it's fun in our neighborhood, but I'm comfy. Yeah, and I'm better. I'm not cursing the weather when my kids come off the bus. I'm ready for the big hug. That's coming my way So because I said no and because I found something that fit for me. I'm now able to receive my kids Yes. And that's all I'm trying to do. I just want to receive my kids and it's not perfect, but it's working in that direction. Yeah. And

Pamela: 11:35

I think what it comes back to, whether we're talking holiday gifts, they're talking the gear you're buying, whether we're talking, whatever it is, you're like, what is my intention? What do I want? What do I want? And what is my goal? What do I want with my kids, with my family? What do I want this to look like that we all have the ability and the opportunity to decide. To be like, this is my family. Here's the thing. If you are a parent listening to this, it is your goddamn family. You get to decide. Period.

Mandy: 12:03

You do. And it's okay if you're like, because I was here, if you're like, Whoa, matrix, I have choice. Whoa, too much. I got to sit with that for a bit. That's an okay reaction to that epiphany too, because I even think I'm still partially in that state where it's whoa, like I don't have to make everyone else happy. Like I am not the protector of other people's feelings. Like people can be responsible for their own feelings.

Pamela: 12:29

And that's a journey, right? Cause you start out as It's my job to take care of everybody else's everything and then you're like, I know that it's not my job to take care of everybody else's everything, but I'm still doing it. And then you're like, I'm going to not take care of everybody else's everything, but your nervous system goes, Oh my God, it's your job to take care of everybody else's everything. And there's like this progression that you finally get to the place. So I often say, and I've got more space, we all have more space to grow, but I often say I'm at the place now where I'm like. Yeah. I don't really care. That's your problem. Not mine. And sometimes I will even say like tongue in cheek, but really true, but also it's a little self deprecating. I go, I think that's my sociopathic side. There's a component there. And I like, I use humor all the time. So I'm like, I was going to say, if

Mandy: 13:16

anybody appreciates diffusing with humor, it's me. So I'm with you on that. I love

Pamela: 13:20

it. Oh my God. I think that. I think that's my cause Marlee said to me totally off topic, Marlee said, Mom, what's your favorite kind of dog? And I go, Luna, our dog. And she goes. No, but what's the dog do you think is like the cutest. And I said, okay, here's this thing that happens when you meet people is you can be like, they're so attractive. And then you get to know them. And you're like, that person's a douche. They're not attractive anymore. And I said, and I feel the same way about animals. And she was like, okay, but like a puppy. And I was like, is this a puppy that chews on shit? Or is this a puppy? This is sweet and cuddly and is not eating my shoes. And she's no, just what is the cutest animal to you? And I was like, I don't like animals. And she was like, what do you mean you don't like animals? You love our dog. I'm like our dog, because I have a relationship with her. And I said, actually, I'm the same with people, right? Like I'm like the, I used to be like, I'm gonna work with kids. And I'm like, I don't really like kids. And it's not that I don't like kids. It's that I like to have relationships with people. And when I don't have relationships with you or and I don't, and this is not like a, if I don't have a relationship with you, fuck you, this is great. Let's build a relationship. But if I don't have a relationship with you, then you're outside of my sphere, and it's not my job to do anything about you. This is how I see the world. And I joke that that's my sociopathic self.

Mandy: 14:32

But I think that's the we recently talked about carrying the backpack with the rocks and whatnot. It's we have, like our inner sphere, our middle sphere, our outer sphere. We have all these spheres, and we're going in and out, and we're interacting with all of them. And what I've realized is my biggest mistake is, I thought my job was to give to all of them at all times. I thought that was my purpose in life. It was my gift. That's my gift in life, and really, it was a response to my trauma. But, but to me, I thought, and to now say, okay, I'm now categorizing people per sphere, which feels weird. Feels very weird because you're like, Oh my gosh are you sphere one or sphere two? Oh God, I even have to think about that. Oh, geez, that feels so judgy. But you got to separate people. And because sphere one, my family unit is I can't be empty when SOS happens in this bubble. So if I gave to sphere two and sphere three, and I'm empty, and now it's emergency mode here, and I can't give, That's a problem. It's like that whole it's not that I can't teach kids, or it's not that I, or that I, kids suck and I choose not to teach them, or it's not that I don't have a connection with you, therefore you're chopped liver, but it's okay, I have X amount of energy to give, and when I have extra, absolutely, we're gonna reach, branch out into the other spheres, but when I don't have extra, Sorry, my friend, you get basic human decency. You will always, I will treat you with the respect from one human to another, but you're not going to get any more than that. And telling yourself that's okay is so hard.

Pamela: 16:04

Yeah, especially when you value, when you, the value that you have found in yourself as a grown adult is in your ability to serve other people. In my ability to be of service, if my, if the only value that I have is, and this is where this reaction comes from, right? This is, you say your trauma responses for me, it's like this growth pattern that has happened where, um, I strongly, truly, and deeply believed that my only, the only value that I had is if I could be a value to you, then maybe you would keep me around. Fear of rejection. And so then it becomes this whole this whole journey around if I want to be in people's lives, then I have to be giving to everybody. And like back in the days when I was teaching at the YMCA, a lot of the people that ended up in my sphere did so because I was a therapist and I could be of service in some way. And that's what a lot of my relationships look like in that timeframe. And I'd say, Mandy knows what back in the YMCA days were for me, that's Marley was just born. So she's now going to be 15 in March. So she chose the best playlists. So there's this like this process that's gone on where, I've had to come to a place of Yeah, that's not really my, that's not really my thing. That's not really my job. And always, 100 percent of the time ask people in my DMs. all the time I have this question. Can you help me out with this thing? Somebody suggested that I reach out to you, and I will pour it all out. You'll get it all from me because that's just who I am. But I don't walk around worrying about what the people on the street are experiencing because it's not my job. Until you knock on my door and you say, Hey, I could use your help. I just, I'm over here minding my own business. And it's been really freeing to not have to be wrapped up in that Oh, God, what is everybody thinking? And what if I post this thing? And what do people, what are people going to say? Or how are they going to react? It's just freeing to let go of that that, that put down that backpack of rocks that you're carrying around.

Mandy: 18:01

And with this being the season of giving, I think that's a common trap that many of us fall into is that I must give, and I see these Excel sheets and I'm like, I'm sure your mailman is awesome. But does every single person that you have a touch, touch contact with in the last 365 days, do they need a present? Now, granted, I had a really great mailman that I used to talk with on a regular basis, and we totally gave Andrew presents. We had built a connection. I don't know who my mail people are here. In fact, they don't know how to close my mailbox, which I find concerning. But anyway,

Pamela: 18:35

we have a PO box,

Mandy: 18:36

I said that I'm like, do we need to consider this? I'm like, and I'm like, is it that hard? Do you not like me?

Pamela: 18:42

Do you not like me? Isn't that wild? Look at that story. This mailman is not closing my mailbox. They must not like me. They want my shit to get wet. See?

Mandy: 18:52

And it's, but it's interesting. I now understand my story more that it wasn't a surprise to be like, aha. Like I'm like, yes, I know. I know that's where those thoughts come from. But here we are with the season of giving and for some people to be hyper organized and to be saving up all year and to be able to give and this is the one thing you do. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it, as long as you're feeling that you're giving, not that you're feeling that it's a burden or that you have to. And sometimes you got to sit with it and get a little uncomfortable to figure out which one is which. Like sometimes, I know I went for years being like, no, I love this. This is great. This is such a wonderful tradition. Love, ho, ho. And now I'm like, Oh, I hated all of that. Oh, that's a bummer. I did that for so long.

Pamela: 19:43

And also the we get stuck in this dynamic, especially with family, um, of giving with receiving on our mind yeah, I'm going to give because I'm going to receive. And that's a really lack. Or scarcity place to give from an energetic place, not like a financial place, but like to give from a place of what am I going to get in return for this? So if you're giving it, and if you're in a, I will just be totally honest. Most of us are not walking around going, yeah, that's totally why I'm giving. And you probably won't even admit it to yourself. So it's totally fine. If you're like, shut up, Pam, you don't know what you're talking about. But if you are not giving because you love the experience. of creating, giving, whatever the thing is. Marley bakes for we have some elderly neighbors that Marley bakes for, and she loves it because they like turn inside out about how like amazing the things that she makes are. And that's her gift. That's her craft, right? Is she'll bake you anything you want. But if you're not doing it from a place of like true love and compassion, um, don't do it.

Mandy: 20:45

And I think maybe more familiar to people is the feeling of giving out of guilt, being like, Oh, they got me something. They always get me something. I have to get something in return. God, what do I get? Do I make it big? Do I make it small? I don't even know what they want. They have everything that they need. Do I just give them a gift card? No. A gift card is too impersonal. Giving from guilt.

Pamela: 21:03

Such a shitty place. Yeah. And unfortunately everything is energy, right? So when we give from a place of guilt, or we give from a place of lack, or we give from a place of, what are they going to get me in return? They better get me something good. We're, that's what we're giving. We're giving that energy. And that's not going to create connection.

Mandy: 21:22

The extra money that you spent, that you're probably going to have to pick up overtime in January to cover, because you had to show That you loved somebody, you really just gave a big, steamy, stinky pile of ick. Cause that's what it felt like for you to acquire that gift. You just gifted ick to somebody. So

Pamela: 21:40

yeah, why do it? Why do it? And what I find most often is that it's our, it's our own stories, right? And I'm like, not a, what's really interesting is I'm not a material here. So then I'm not like a material, but I love to give gifts, like giving to people is my love language. Which is why when you DM me that I have a, you have a problem that things are going on, I spend the next three days Talking you off the talking. You can do all the things that are going on in your life and give you all the tips and tools and everything, um, because I just love to be able to give right. But I have a family member who is like the, just send me a URL and I'll buy you something. And I'm like, absolutely not. And there's conflict in that relationship all the time around gift giving so much so that we stopped buying them gifts. Like I was like, I'm not doing it. I'm out because I'm not interested in that. Like I don't, and I'm one of those pains in the asses where I'm like, I. See people's souls and buy them the thing that lines up with the soul of who they are. And I don't want anything. I don't want anything. And I won't tell you what I want. Because I, and some of it is I have this, there's, I have unreasonable expectations as my husband says. To think that everybody in the world can like, will give from that place. But the truth is I give because it brings me joy. And if you're not giving because it brings you joy, you're giving because out of guilt you're giving for some other reason because you're supposed to and you're especially this year, like a lot of people are stressing about finances. And so if you're giving and you're like, I don't know how I'm gonna pull this together. We're going to go into more credit card debt, or we're gonna we're just creating more struggles for our family. Let this be the year that you say. No, I can't do it. I can't do it.

Mandy: 23:24

Or maybe not even I can't. I choose not to. I am actively choosing Yeah, because My health is worth it. My sanity is worth it. My kids Happiness is worth it. My kids happiness is not dependent on excess Now, that being said, I'm so glad that we have organizations out there that can, buy warm clothes that can buy treat gifts that can buy, I, I think that's amazing. And I hope that we continue to strengthen these, organizations but it's funny. I saw on Facebook, like a mom's page and some of the moms are saying it's too much to give All of these big things, once a year, and she wanted to give out 12 envelopes, where she would give an experience every month, but she could afford it more easily, to pay for it month to month, than do one big thing, and I'm like, What a brilliant tradition to offer your kids to say this is what we can do and we're proud this is how we do it. Not we're keeping up with the Joneses. I was like, I was given all the, when I read that, Oh, I was just like, Oh, but good for her. Cause that was her note.

Pamela: 24:39

Yeah. I have a friend that does that for her mother. So her and her her kids give to the grandmother. Every Christmas and she started this years ago for the same kind of reason like this, you know I mean if you're like my mother has everything right, it's what do you buy? What do you buy your 80 year old mother who has buys anything she wants, right? And I've always we always had this struggle with her. This friend of mine started giving doing envelopes, the 12 envelopes with an experience every month. And some of the experiences are free experiences. Some of them are like, a scavenger hunt on this thing or lunch here. Not that one year is free, yeah and then she does one gift where it's like they're going tickets to somewhere to see something or whatever whatever your top gift is, you do that in one of the months, but you can do like an afternoon baking with Nana or, whatever the case may be. It doesn't have to be like yeah. It doesn't have to be big things and it doesn't have to be any, it doesn't have to cost anything.

Mandy: 25:41

And if the internet is not rife with all of these stories from parents where, you know you hear all of these stories where these parents try to give these mega birthday parties or they try to give a ton of gifts or they try, parents try to meet all of these unrealistic expectations. And then I'm thinking specifically the one of the dad that took the day off of work and took the kid out of school and they hung out. And the kid was like, Oh, I'm going to get weepy. It was a very poignant story. And the son for the rest of his life said, dad, that was the best day ever. And they went to the park and had like peanut butter and jelly. And they like, do you know what I mean? Like it was a very light and the dad felt like he was failing his kid by not creating something grandiose. And the kid held that. for the rest of his life. And there's tons of stories like that. And it's yeah, I, we just capitalism and consumerism has its place in America, but it makes it really hard for parents to parent. So in, in this day and age for the holiday season, how can you give the gift? of being grounded to your family? How can you give the gift of being present? Heck, write up a coupon and give it to your kid and say, one hour with mom not on her phone. Can we sit with a little bit with that? We're all on our phones like a lot. We're working on it in our house. Unfortunately, we are on call and we do have notifications that do require timely responses. We're trying to navigate around that, how do we create more sacred family time? Okay. All right. I got a fun idea. Okay. So since it's since people are looking for ideas on how to create a more intentional holiday season, Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, Boxing Day, all of the wonderful things we've already had. What was it? Was it Holly? No. Which one was the? Yes. What was it, Holly? Holly, yeah. So we've got these wonderful holidays with these amazing traditions. What are other ways that we can get creative and do it differently? And I'm not going to say better because I, there's no judgment there, but so we've got the envelopes, the 12 envelopes. You taught me for when how to Use minimalism or how to create some structure around gift giving for, friends who celebrate Christmas. Want, need, wear, read. You taught that to me. We still do it to this day. What are some other like spitfire, like what are other ideas? Like we already gave a few.

Pamela: 28:02

I love to do and this goes back to knowing the person, right? So Marlee is She's a theater kid. She's a musician. She wants to like, she wants to consume all the music. She wants to be at all the things, doesn't matter what it is. We went to a, like a jazz music performance at her high school at the beginning of the year. And if you've got kids that are like, you've got high school age kids that are musicians, a lot of times high schools are asking them, part of their grade, part of Marley's orchestra grade, is going to performances. And this is the time of year and like schools, high schools there's we have a theater place in Bedford, there's one in Nashua, Peacock Players there's lots of like places that have lower ticket prices, you're not talking about a Broadway ticket of 300 a person, you're talking like a 10 ticket to be able to like, Carve out some, if you've got a kid that likes performances, that likes going to the theater or you're like, maybe this is who they are, right? They're creative and let's check it out. Doing some research and looking into some of that stuff and getting some, and like creating some intentional time around, right? Like maybe your kid's a dancer and you take them to a Nutcracker performance every year, but you're not taking them to the Boston Ballet or the New York City or whatever. A lot of the

Mandy: 29:18

local dance studios do their own performance. Yeah, and you're supporting local and you're supporting other families who are trying to give arts to their kids. To piggyback on that, a lot of churches open their doors to everyone where it is a celebration of music, whether you're of the faith or not. We've actually attended a few of those, because I got a strings player in the house and I'm trying to let her see other children performing. So it's great that adults are performing, but I want her to see other children performing, we do what we see. And, you know what, we recently used museum passes again. Museum passes, a lot of museums and different places are not open over the, on the actual holiday, but before and after the holiday, there's lots of space. We just did the Museum of Fine Art again. There's a lot of, great places that you can make a family tradition, Museum of Science, the Aquarium, you can go I've got a fourth grader. She gets free entry into national parks as part of that federal program, maybe if you're outdoorsy and you want to try out some national parks that could be part of your gift giving experience maybe renting a movie, a new movie. Maybe you're like, Oh, wow, all of that being outside and around other people. Oh, yeah. Not working for me. What if you had a movie night and you popped popcorn and you got Junior Mints because we're a Junior Mints house. Junior

Pamela: 30:33

Mints.

Mandy: 30:33

In the popcorn or not in the popcorn?

Pamela: 30:35

That's a good question. I guess I could go either way.

Mandy: 30:38

I can go either way too. I do a little bit of both. Like what if you did like a basket with some popcorn and some, candies and like a movie ticket. It's just, it doesn't need to be where like you got to do the elf on a shelf every flippin day and you're buying all these extra things and then you got to set the alarm to do it and then, oh shoot, you forgot and then I love it. was a mother on, one of the reels or tick tock where You know, she's you wake your kids wake up before you and you didn't move the elf and she's and then you see her running and she grabs, she throws it and then she, like a, like an action movie, that's not how I want to feel over Christmas. So when my kid asked me this morning, mommy, other kids have an elf. And I said, that's really cool. I said, do they have really great stories? She said yes. And I said, gosh, does that make you laugh? She goes, yeah. She goes, why don't we have one? And I said I said, do your other friends go on layovers with their daddy? Do they travel all the time? Do they get to go on airplanes like, every other week? Your kids have been flying forever. And I'm like I'm like, they get to know if we go on airplanes all the time. I'm like, everyone's a little different. It's really cool. Maybe you can share your airplane stories because maybe they would really like that too. And everyone can have fun sharing their stories with each other.

Pamela: 31:46

Yeah. I have such an issue with the Elf on a Shelf. That's a whole nother episode.

Mandy: 31:50

I'm in such a comfortable place saying no now, whereas that would have triggered like a, oh God, maybe, what if I just, maybe I can order one in time. Maybe I can borrow one.

Pamela: 32:01

Does anyone have an elf I can use?

Mandy: 32:04

And I'm like, no, it's not for me. And I love you more by not frantically trying to do it than if I tried to overextend myself and do something that I did that did not bring me joy. That does not serve you.

Pamela: 32:18

Yeah. And I've loved the, like you had said earlier this week, you were like, my goal, my intention is to experience more joy. And so then the question becomes, is what I'm doing moving me towards joy? Or away from joy. And if it's moving me towards joy, I continue to do it. And if it's moving me away from joy, I have to figure out how to get out of this. And we can craft whatever stories. Because sometimes we get real black and white around that. We're like cleaning my bathrooms does not bring me joy. And you're like does having a clean bathroom bring you joy? Oh, I love having a clean bathroom. Okay. Then in order to get there, you need to clean the bathroom. Or you need to, hire somebody to clean your bathroom. Whatever your fixes. Yeah. Yeah. I think sometimes we get like in the but I don't have to do these things and that, and I'm, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is the goal is to be moving towards what you want more of. And if you want more material things, then go get a second job so you can buy more material things. And if you want more experiences or to spend time with your kids or your family, your friends or whatever it is, then carve that out and make those plans. Figure out how you're going to do it and holidays are great like if you have a friend that you're like, oh, we always give to them and I don't know what to buy, but I really like spending time with them. Then that's a great gift for your friends. For the people in your life that you want to spend time with is we go out, we hang out once a month and here are the things that we're going to do in these hangouts. And if your kids are old enough to do research, like I have a 14 year old, I'm like, do some research. I will challenge her to find free things. And it's not because it has to be free. It's because I want to be able to inform everybody that I'm working with Hey, there's these free things. I'm like, find some free, fun winter things that we can do free or low costs. So I'm like under X amount of dollars per family. Like here are the things and she'll start researching and find things. And she's Hey, did you know that this happens here? And these are things that are going on. And so we've been exploring some of that stuff too. There's lots of different ways that you can have experiences together and it doesn't have to cost a million dollars. Yeah, and

Mandy: 34:14

it's if if a two week trip bucket list thing, if that's what you need, do it, but you don't have to, right? Does it need to go to 11 every year, it's okay. And it's okay to say. I'm tired. I think a lot of us, especially, oh my gosh, I think COVID depleted a lot of people. And, some people, and some people found it very recharging. I know some people that are like professional bakers now because they were like digging into that homemade bread like no one's business. Marley is now a proficient, baker. But some of us are still tired from How much that was to carry. And I think

Pamela: 34:54

Just being tired from life, right? Like we talk about what it's like to grow up in the 80s and 90s and be like millennials or like on the cusp parents that are trying to give our kids more than we had more opportunities. And when I say more, like we, every generation says that, right? I want my kids to have more than I have, but we're like the first generation. That's I want my kids to have more peace. I want my kids to have more connection. I want my kids to feel better about themselves. All my kids to have confidence. Those are the things I want to give my kids. I want my kids to be okay. I want them to like emotionally, spiritually and relationally be okay. And that means we do what we need to do to move in that direction. And it doesn't, that does not include spending 3, 000 at. Kmart, which doesn't exist anymore, but to go back to the Kmart

Mandy: 35:38

electronics run. Oh my gosh, the TV runs the oh my gosh, people getting stampeded on, like

Pamela: 35:45

crazy stuff.

Mandy: 35:47

Hey, spirit of the season. I'm going to trample someone so I can get a, 50 off my TV. Like awesome.

Pamela: 35:54

Yeah, I know. There's been so many times I've gone out shopping with my sister who lives like the North Shore of Boston. So it's a little crazy. And and that's what I do. And I, when people are like, since Marley was little, Marley was like six years old, and we're standing in line at Target, because not on Black Friday, just like we needed to pick some things up. And the line was, how it can get at Target sometimes. It was this ridiculously long line. And there was this woman behind her that kept Pushing her cart. Marley was pushing the cart, pushing her cart into her. And she was like, move forward. The woman said, and Marley turns around, like she turns around and looks at her. And she looks at me and I smiled and she turns around and she goes, happy holidays at six. And the woman was like, completely deflated. And I was like, So it's important to me is that my kid can not be an asshole, but my, that my kid can like, that she's not taking that personally that she at six years old can be like, that woman's got shit going on. And it's not my problem. That's a win for me. We

Mandy: 36:49

have a generation of children that know what regulation is and know how to how to nurture and support their own regulation. In a very dysregulated world.

Pamela: 37:03

Yes, that's what we do. That creates

Mandy: 37:04

conflict. It sure does. Not so much with our regulated kids. Self regulated kids. But it creates

Pamela: 37:12

conflict. It sure does. It sure does. And I think if you're a mom listening and you're like, man, I wish I could regulate myself, wish I could teach my kids how to regulate, I'm still stuck in that cyclone of being okay, not being okay, but not being okay, be air quotes around being okay and not being okay. There's like hope, like there's a one year ago, you were not in this place.

Mandy: 37:34

No! I was like, I am the poster child. I honestly thought I made a mistake becoming a mother. I really did. I was like, why does this feel awful? Next level awful all the time. I thought motherhood was like, some good days, some bad days, but I'm like, where the fuck are my good days? It was just such a desperate, dark place. And I think for people who are like, how can I teach my kids as if I can't do it myself? You're already afraid. Just ask yourself that question. It's like you, you said to me forever ago, you're like, if you're worried about being a bad parent, You're already not a bad parent, so just be patient and gracious with yourself. Don't feel like you need to do anything right now. Sometimes you just need to sit and just go. That's beautiful productivity in and of itself.

Pamela: 38:30

******Absolutely. It's our ability to self reflect. That's what makes us. That's human. That's what makes us allows us to grow their ability to self reflect and to go, I want to grow. That's it. It's all. It doesn't matter what you want to, how you want to get there. It doesn't matter what you want the growth to look like. If you're like, I want to grow, then great. I want my kids to be okay. Awesome.

Mandy: 38:50

Oh my gosh. I'm going to, so my nine year old is deep. Love it. So she says to me this morning, mama, it must be really tough to be a tree. And I'm like, okay, where are we going with this? I'm like, breakfast talk, existential crisis. What are we doing here? And she goes, when you're like a tiny seed, like just all, suddenly it just tramples you and that's it, you're done. And then what if the winter's really hard or what if a bird picks you up and then you can't and then, then You start to get your roots established, and then you start to get taller, and it's not easy yet, but at least you got them in there. And then when you're really big you've made it you can be like, Hey, breezes, what's up? I gotcha. You're like, oh, it didn't rain for a little bit? Oh, my roots are real deep. I'm gonna get lots of water. And she's talking, and I'm like, oh my god, I feel like a profound understanding of resilience as you're describing a tree right now. I was having a moment. And it's If you just trust that your tree is going to grow and every day it gets a little bit easier, it's hard because you can't see it. It's faith in something you don't know and you've never seen before. But if you can like just, just say, okay, that's it. I get it. I just, yep. I'm going to blind faith this one and just believe it's going to work out. That's just what I need right now. Yeah. I think that's what got me to where I am today. Thank goodness. And I feel good too. I do still have a lot of anger about what I missed, what I lost. What I didn't get to experience, I still have some anger about that. But then I see how much more I'm gaining and how every year I get more. So it's bittersweet.

Pamela: 40:19

Yeah. Yeah. And I love the you. I think sometimes we think Oh, having this conversation, you guys are great. You're exactly where you need to be. Perfect. I can be to that like perfect place in X amount of time. But this is, this just speaks to the complexity of us as human beings, right? You can be angry and you can be in a struggle and you can find peace and, favor and move from a place of wanting to have more joy and more connection and more time with your kids. And it doesn't, it can be both. It can be like, my kids drive me crazy, and I say this all the time actually, Marlee and I have this conversation because I annoy her, so I picked her up from school the other day, and I'm a talker, just in case anybody couldn't tell and I picked her up from school, and we get in the car cause Jeff, I think it was Monday, Jeff had jury duty, and I was like, yeah, I can grab her so I can pick her up, we're driving home, we got now her school's it's 12 minutes, And we're on, we're like five minutes from home. So we've been in the car for seven minutes or so, maybe a little longer. Cause there's a little bit of traffic getting out of school. And she goes, why does this seem like the longest drive ever? And I go, cause I haven't stopped talking since I picked you up. She's that's probably it. It's I love you. And I hate you at the exact same time. I love you. And I hate you at the exact same time. And she's same Z's. I'm like, okay, great. So I think that's the other thing is when you can teach your kids and I taught her early because I went through the same thing where you're talking about stop touching me. I went through that early on in parenting as well. It's totally an ADHD thing. And I taught her that I can be like, get away from me. Don't touch me. You're driving me crazy. And I love you with my whole heart at the exact same time because we are complex and we get, we are not limited to one feeling at a time. And when you can embrace that, then it becomes, now she's 14 and she gives me shit. She's I'm like, I'll leave and I'll be gone for a while. Did you miss me? And she's I'm both missed you and didn't miss you at the same time. Okay. Thanks. Fair enough. I'm like, you missed having me around. I missed having you silently around. And I'm like, her favorite time to hang with me is when I'm working. She comes and sits right there next to me and we'll read while I'm doing other things. She loves being near me, but I start talking and she's okay, I'm going.

Mandy: 42:24

Oh, and that's what I'm trying with my oldest to get her where I'm like, my voice is annoying you. That's okay. And it's okay to go to another room, but I'm actually talking with daddy right now. He's, like he's going to be gone for five days. Like we need to chit chat. She calls it chit chat. I love it. We need to chit chat for a bit. So you're welcome to stay. But if you don't like the sound of my voice, this is my special time in my sharing space. You need to leave. And then I'm going to do a special time with you later because I love that too. But yeah, but it's funny, I think relationally, there's like that love hate, and I think that's easy to see. I had a harder time learning how to sit with the big feelings we talk about kids having big feelings I get the big feelings, where it's like, Oh, and the ability to sit with being both angry, And grateful and inspired was a skill I had to learn. I didn't understand. For me, it was almost like visualizing it. Just for whatever reason, my brain sees forms and people and, that's, we all have our own the way that our brain processes things. But it's almost seeing West Side Story the two dancers coming together and meshing and it was it was always opposing one another and it was like, no, actually there's always a complexity and they're interwoven and that's how it's supposed to be and it's okay and it wasn't like, I need to decide, am I this or am I that? You don't have to put that on you you can be like, I love our Christmas tradition and I hate this Christmas tradition at the same time

Pamela: 43:55

Yeah. I love the entry. I love having, I love putting up a fresh Christmas tree in my house and I do not want to go stand in that field. Yeah. Yeah. We go to the literally we, when I say we go to the farm, it's like the farm stand for the farm in town. And I said to her the other day when we went and got our tree there, because that's what we do. It's a three minute drive from my house. I Go, yeah, pick whatever tree you want. I don't care. And they go that one. I go, okay, great. Stick it on the car and we go home. We're there for all of like maybe seven minutes. And this is the way that it always is. Cause I can't, I'm not doing the thing. I'm not doing the go in and be in a field and do all the things and all the day long experience. And I call it the Griswold Christmas. I'm not doing the Griswold Christmas tree. I'm not doing that. And I said to her, the woman who works there, it's a young couple. And I was like, I would much rather just come support. This is your business. This is what you do. This is like how you make your living. I would much rather just come here and support you and hand you my money and take my tree home. Then first of all, go do the work. Cause I am, I'm outsourcing everything. There's no way in hell I'm going to cut down my own damn Christmas tree. It's not in my DNA. Thank you very much. But I would much rather do that than go trek out. To wherever, like I have a friend who drives an hour and a half so they can go to the same tree farm to cut down the tree and have the thing. And I'm like, that's amazing that you guys all love doing that. And she said, and I was like, Ben, stop doing it. Why are you doing it? If you don't love it. I love having a tree. I don't love

Mandy: 45:18

getting a tree. So it's funny, my husband this year wants to try going somewhere where you drive an hour to look at Christmas lights, and then you drive an hour home. And I was like, for Christmas lights?

Pamela: 45:28

You're like, but I think my neighbors have Christmas lights up. Isn't that good enough?

Mandy: 45:31

Yeah. And I was like, okay. And so when we talked about it, I'm like, Hey, I'm like, I'm going to be traveling actually this week. Would you like to make it something that's the three of you? Or would you feel like it was like, did you want it to be the four of us? And he was like, no, that'd be really cool. We did the three of us. And I'm like, I would love that.

Pamela: 45:48

That makes my life so happy. Here's my suggestions. Pack some snacks.

Mandy: 45:53

We have to do things separately a lot. It's just the way it is. But it's that can be a possible solution for other people too. Or it's like maybe, one person can have one special tradition and the other person can have the other

Pamela: 46:07

one. Like my husband loves jazz music as well as does my daughter. And I'm like, great. You guys should go see some jazz shows together. Fun, fun. Thank you love.

Mandy: 46:17

Thank you. Always love doing this. And thank you for all the coaching and the support and the community that you've built for moms because like You're allowing us to give to the kids that we, what we want to give to our kids, but we don't know how yet. So that's priceless

Pamela: 46:30

right there. And I think sometimes as parents or as moms in particular, but as parents in general we tend to think we have to, in order to give to our kids, we have to take from ourselves. I did. And yeah, that's, I think that's a common thing is we're like, in order to give to my kids, I have to take from myself. But really, your kid is best served when you give to yourself. And then they receive through you, not in spite of you or not as a detriment of you. That's why we do what we do. All

Mandy: 46:58

of it. I love it. All right. Thank you. Thank you. And happy holidays to everyone.

Pamela: 47:03

Thank you. Thanks so much for listening in our conversation, and I hope that you really enjoyed it. And if you did, please, please, please go to apple podcast. And leave a review so that other moms, other families can find this podcast as well. Thanks guys. And I will see you soon. Take care.